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Soviet Ground Forces Stronger?

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  • Soviet Ground Forces Stronger?

    So I was playing on Nguyen Hue and no one else was on, so I decided to do a little test. I captured bases so that the US ground forces would be assaulting a Soviet held base and proceeded to watch. The US forces attacked three times, all three times failing to destroy a single enemy vehicle.

    I figured that this was a game play mechanic meant to force the players to attack the bases themselves and not leave it to the ground forces.

    So then I destroyed the T-54 (Please correct me if I'm wrong) leaving only the AA units which the US forces promptly destroyed. I expected the same scenario, with the Soviet forces assaulting, but failing to take, the base from the US occupiers. I was wrong, the Soviet forces rolled into the base after destroying the M48 and AA units within seconds.

    Am I missing something? Because for a game that is meant to play both sides evenly, it seems that the Soviet forces have some pretty big advantages over US forces.
    Last edited by Caldwell; 10-07-2016, 01:36 AM.

  • #2
    Which bases were they? The behavior of GF is sometimes a bit glitchy depending on the pair of bases. Additionally, have you considered whether or not the T-54 set itself up in a better position than the M48 did?

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    • #3
      It was base 3, located in the hills near the Soviet base. As far as I could tell, the setup was almost the same. Both tanks had to come around a corner, both defending tanks had the higher ground, and both defending tanks had a small embankment to use as cover.

      I was unaware that the positioning of the tanks had anything to do with how they battled, usually for bot encounters in most games, it's just whoever shoots first.

      However, I did the same thing with bases 2 and 4 and got the exact same result, the Soviets rolled right through the US forces, and the US forces got demolished when they counterattacked.

      Also, US units going from base 7 to 6 will randomly get caught and explode.
      Last edited by Caldwell; 10-07-2016, 05:29 AM.

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      • #4
        Just did the same test on Kosvo, except from the Soviet side. Lined it up so bases 8 and 6 were US held with soviet forces attacking, no helicopter support. The Soviets ROFL stomped through the US forces and then demolished all counterattacks. Also flew over the the US spawn point several times, US AA is extremely inefficient.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Caldwell View Post
          Just did the same test on Kosvo, except from the Soviet side. Lined it up so bases 8 and 6 were US held with soviet forces attacking, no helicopter support. The Soviets ROFL stomped through the US forces and then demolished all counterattacks. Also flew over the the US spawn point several times, US AA is extremely inefficient.

          That would explain why NATO can't seem to win on Kosovo...

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          • #6
            We can assure you that ground forces stats are similar at the moment (can even show screenshots! ). It's just pure AI behavior thing, and we will improve AI with time.

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            • #7
              Literally the only difference between M48 and T-55 is their collider sizes and wheel positions. M48 collider is sized 3 x 2 x 7 meters, while T-55 collider is 3 x 1.5 x 6. This can affect the shootout even though units are trying to target the center of enemy. Everything else (i mean speed, engine parameters, turning parameters, hit points, gun parameters and etc) is the same. I mean not similar - exactly same. The same is with US and Soviet AA on all bases. Also M1 Abrams and T-72 colliders on Kosovo are exactly the same - 3 x 1.2 x 6.

              With the next patch I'll make colliders of those vehicles (and check all others vehicle types too) exactly the same, so possibility of Chinese tanks taking less damage because of misses will be gone.

              Also we will do tests with US-held 8 and 6 bases on Kosovo. Havent tried to do what you, Caldwell, described, so dont know what to answer at the moment.

              I agree that big difference to battle outcome could be related to vehicle pathing. Vehicle use different ways and different terrain and that could expose them to enemy fire in different ways. Also positions which they take when they reach LZ's are affecting that aswell. This is what we need to figure out how to improve.

              First of all we want to make vehicle routes a bit more random in future. So there's no dedicated path for vehicle moving from one point to another but rather some area which they will pass through, it could be narrow, it could be wide and each time route will differ in some way.

              Also we want to make vehicle battles take more time and look more epic. Make them miss more, make them much more resistable to each other shots, make them slowdown after they come in full engagement, so they wont be shooting at each other from 30 meters away.

              Another thing we can do is start running simulations of vehicle engagements. Lets say 20 simulations of convoy attacking armored LZ and check the outcome. If its not fair - change the positions on LZ.

              Or we can create more random ground engagement behaviour. So vehicle positions will matter less to the outcome and plain random will matter much more.
              Last edited by itold; 10-11-2016, 06:18 PM.

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              • #8
                Thanks for the details. It's nice to know that you guys are trying to work on it and make it more interesting. The stats may show that the vehicle combat should stay the same, but I can't ignore the fact that Soviet ground forces pummel the US forces every time.
                Last edited by Caldwell; 10-11-2016, 06:49 PM.

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                • #9
                  The interesting part is to figure out why this happens. I mean if they are equal in terms of stats, what else is not equal and leads to this outcome? As of now I cant suggest anything besides what I wrote earlier. If you'll have any ideas about it - please share.

                  I'll also try to do what you did, but with gathering some additional inside info about what happens.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jasp
                    Is there a timer that kicks idle players? I once wanted to record them fighting and watch the video later but I was kicked after a few minutes...
                    I don't know about any timer, I used the helicopter to manipulate the battlefield while watching the ground forces. And by manipulate the battlefield, I mean fortify the bases, otherwise the ground units don't advance. I didn't use the helicopter to attack any ground forces unless I wanted to change the base occupation.

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                    • #11
                      I played some more on Nguyen Hue and I found a big difference in the way ground combat is conducted. The T-55 always shoots first. The Patton's range is significantly less than the T-55, in the case of bases 6 and 2, a T-55 in base 2 can and will destroy an AA base in 6, and will attack the US convoy while it is still in base. Whereas the Patton will not open fire until it is halfway down the road. The same when Soviet forces attack, often times wiping out half the units in the US base before the Patton even opens fire.

                      Also, the positioning of the Pattons suck in most of the bases. In Soviet bases, the T-55 will take up defense facing the opposing road. In US bases, the Patton will take up defense facing the road that it just came from, often times exposing the rear of the tank to the incoming T-55. I don't know if it's set up so that armor values are counted, however this still puts the Patton at a large disadvantage because in bases where the mountains prevent fighting until the ground forces are closer, the Patton has to turn the turret around while the T-55 has first strike.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Caldwell View Post
                        I played some more on Nguyen Hue and I found a big difference in the way ground combat is conducted. The T-55 always shoots first. The Patton's range is significantly less than the T-55, in the case of bases 6 and 2, a T-55 in base 2 can and will destroy an AA base in 6, and will attack the US convoy while it is still in base. Whereas the Patton will not open fire until it is halfway down the road. The same when Soviet forces attack, often times wiping out half the units in the US base before the Patton even opens fire.

                        Also, the positioning of the Pattons suck in most of the bases. In Soviet bases, the T-55 will take up defense facing the opposing road. In US bases, the Patton will take up defense facing the road that it just came from, often times exposing the rear of the tank to the incoming T-55. I don't know if it's set up so that armor values are counted, however this still puts the Patton at a large disadvantage because in bases where the mountains prevent fighting until the ground forces are closer, the Patton has to turn the turret around while the T-55 has first strike.
                        Thanks for testing and providing us with test-case.

                        I checked the stats and game mechanics and both T-55 and Patton have exactly same parameters. For example, their target acquisition range is 900 meters. We will test the case described by you specifically and see if there's something we dont see regarding how they are behaving, maybe there's some kind of error or uncertainty in scripts. Maybe this is related only to specific terrain positioning scenarios - we will see.

                        I checked the positioning on bases. Right now it works like that - you have a number of positions at each LZ and vehicle upon arrival starts the search for closest possible waypoint to any of those positions. So what we need to change, is for vehicle search go not by closest distance, but by proper position. Make so certain positions are designated for tanks and others for APC's and AA. And make it so each side has their own preffered positions for tanks. Thats easy to do actually and we will do it for the next patch.

                        We will continue testing your case and other things described here later today. We already found at least one new problem related to pathing and stucking, which will be fixed in the next patch.

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                        • #13
                          seems nice.
                          I would like more maps to have such features as boats, but instead, humvees.
                          They would not change the fight by much, but if they can win a fight instead of loosing one, that's interresting.

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